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	<title>Comments on: Ritchie&#8217;s latest bright idea</title>
	<atom:link href="http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/</link>
	<description>It is all obvious or trivial except...</description>
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		<title>By: Alex</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37115</link>
		<dc:creator>Alex</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 13:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37115</guid>
		<description>Assuming that a fair proportion of the money that flows through CHAPS is moved on a daily basis, this puts a 250x0.05% = 12.5% annual levy on currency flows.

If you look at most big UK banks you will find £500 bn - £1 trillion of amounts representing assets and liabilities from derivatives and associated collateral postings.  Payments to post collateral and settle these contracts are made through CHAPS and generally on a gross basis.  If a bank enters into a collateralised swap trade with another bank and hedges its position in another trade with a third bank, then the total movements of collateral on the two trades will far exceed its net value at risk.  You ghave to say this would likely kill most sterling settled derivatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Assuming that a fair proportion of the money that flows through CHAPS is moved on a daily basis, this puts a 250&#215;0.05% = 12.5% annual levy on currency flows.</p>
<p>If you look at most big UK banks you will find £500 bn &#8211; £1 trillion of amounts representing assets and liabilities from derivatives and associated collateral postings.  Payments to post collateral and settle these contracts are made through CHAPS and generally on a gross basis.  If a bank enters into a collateralised swap trade with another bank and hedges its position in another trade with a third bank, then the total movements of collateral on the two trades will far exceed its net value at risk.  You ghave to say this would likely kill most sterling settled derivatives.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian Bennett</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37094</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian Bennett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Nov 2009 07:49:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>As often happens here (and I intend no criticism of commentators because this is, after all, mainly an economics blog, but there is another way of approaching the issue), you&#039;re looking at the practicalities - how much would be raised, how much lost - and ignoring the fact that there is no moral justification for this tax (OK, there&#039;s no moral justification behind ANY tax, but let&#039;s start drawing lines, please). It&#039;s my money, I earned it; get your grubby hands off!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As often happens here (and I intend no criticism of commentators because this is, after all, mainly an economics blog, but there is another way of approaching the issue), you&#8217;re looking at the practicalities &#8211; how much would be raised, how much lost &#8211; and ignoring the fact that there is no moral justification for this tax (OK, there&#8217;s no moral justification behind ANY tax, but let&#8217;s start drawing lines, please). It&#8217;s my money, I earned it; get your grubby hands off!</p>
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		<title>By: Dennis the Peasant</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37088</link>
		<dc:creator>Dennis the Peasant</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 22:40:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37088</guid>
		<description>Fortunately, Dickie&#039;s talking to himself. You Brits have, on average, gone fairly thick lately, but not even a moron like Gordon Brown could swallow this bit of lunacy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fortunately, Dickie&#8217;s talking to himself. You Brits have, on average, gone fairly thick lately, but not even a moron like Gordon Brown could swallow this bit of lunacy.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37083</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:33:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37083</guid>
		<description>&lt;I&gt;So the tax will raise 0.05% of nothing.&lt;/I&gt;

To Mr Murphy et al, I&#039;m sure there are two solutions to this problem:
1. Increase the rate
2. Accuse (or even prosecute) everyone who doesn&#039;t transfer their money via CHAPS, including those who just don&#039;t transfer any money at all, of tax evasion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>So the tax will raise 0.05% of nothing.</i></p>
<p>To Mr Murphy et al, I&#8217;m sure there are two solutions to this problem:<br />
1. Increase the rate<br />
2. Accuse (or even prosecute) everyone who doesn&#8217;t transfer their money via CHAPS, including those who just don&#8217;t transfer any money at all, of tax evasion.</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37082</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 19:29:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37082</guid>
		<description>@evelyn: I think its 0.05 of 1% , ie one twentieth of one percent. On £2m that is indeed £1k.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@evelyn: I think its 0.05 of 1% , ie one twentieth of one percent. On £2m that is indeed £1k.</p>
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		<title>By: Luis Enrique</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37075</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis Enrique</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 16:17:59 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&quot;Banks were supposed to take deposits from savers and lend it to borrowers.&quot;

OK, but without interbank lending that means that each bank must ensure it has enough cash lying around to cover eventualities. This means banks with more cash than they need cannot lend it to banks that are short of cash (a straight &quot;gain from trade&quot; situation I&#039;d have thought). I&#039;m not on solid ground here, but I&#039;d have thought the volatility in daily cash requirements is fairly high, even if you are just taking deposits and making loans to individuals and firms.

Presumably, it boils down to reducing the efficiency of banking by making them hold large buffer stocks of cash will just mean they either charge more for loans and / or pay less to savers ... another tax incidence argument.   

I suppose there&#039;s an argument this might be a price worth paying for greater stability in the banking system .... I&#039;m not immediately sure how to think about that. If banks didn&#039;t do short-term interbank lending, would the system be a lot safer?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Banks were supposed to take deposits from savers and lend it to borrowers.&#8221;</p>
<p>OK, but without interbank lending that means that each bank must ensure it has enough cash lying around to cover eventualities. This means banks with more cash than they need cannot lend it to banks that are short of cash (a straight &#8220;gain from trade&#8221; situation I&#8217;d have thought). I&#8217;m not on solid ground here, but I&#8217;d have thought the volatility in daily cash requirements is fairly high, even if you are just taking deposits and making loans to individuals and firms.</p>
<p>Presumably, it boils down to reducing the efficiency of banking by making them hold large buffer stocks of cash will just mean they either charge more for loans and / or pay less to savers &#8230; another tax incidence argument.   </p>
<p>I suppose there&#8217;s an argument this might be a price worth paying for greater stability in the banking system &#8230;. I&#8217;m not immediately sure how to think about that. If banks didn&#8217;t do short-term interbank lending, would the system be a lot safer?</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Wadsworth</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37073</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wadsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:51:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37073</guid>
		<description>Broadly I agree, but inter-bank lending is partly what allowed the banks to get into the mess they are in. Banks were supposed to take deposits from savers and lend it to borrowers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Broadly I agree, but inter-bank lending is partly what allowed the banks to get into the mess they are in. Banks were supposed to take deposits from savers and lend it to borrowers.</p>
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		<title>By: Evelyn</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37072</link>
		<dc:creator>Evelyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37072</guid>
		<description>Patting myself on my back, I realise that dyslexia strikes once and Gnumeric amplifies it to two direct hits. *blush*

Let me try this again:

Bank days * daily volume:
252*£22bn = £5,544bn

0.05% thereof = 2.7720bn

And the transfers would be to borrower and back to lender: 
Total = £5.544 bn (if you don&#039;t count transfers into and out of the BoE.)

High costs = less profits = less tax receipts, so isn&#039;t the treasury robbing itself here anyway?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patting myself on my back, I realise that dyslexia strikes once and Gnumeric amplifies it to two direct hits. *blush*</p>
<p>Let me try this again:</p>
<p>Bank days * daily volume:<br />
252*£22bn = £5,544bn</p>
<p>0.05% thereof = 2.7720bn</p>
<p>And the transfers would be to borrower and back to lender:<br />
Total = £5.544 bn (if you don&#8217;t count transfers into and out of the BoE.)</p>
<p>High costs = less profits = less tax receipts, so isn&#8217;t the treasury robbing itself here anyway?</p>
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		<title>By: Luis Enrique</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37071</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis Enrique</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>note proposal applies not just to CHAPS but &quot;any new instantaneous, irrevocable financial transaction system.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>note proposal applies not just to CHAPS but &#8220;any new instantaneous, irrevocable financial transaction system.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Luis Enrique</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37070</link>
		<dc:creator>Luis Enrique</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:23:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37070</guid>
		<description>Well, at least we can have every confidence that Richard Murphy has carefully thought through the consequences of destroying overnight lending.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, at least we can have every confidence that Richard Murphy has carefully thought through the consequences of destroying overnight lending.</p>
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		<title>By: Evelyn</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37068</link>
		<dc:creator>Evelyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37068</guid>
		<description>Looks like the BoE will end up going out of the CHAPS business and something else would take it&#039;s place...

And, the man cannot count either.  Here is my calculation, using this link: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10683256/%E2%80%98The--relationship-between-the-overnight-interbank-unsecured-loan-market

Banking days: 252
Daily turnover: 22bn
total: 3344bn
0.05% thereof: 167.2bn

(also, 0.05% of 2m = 100k, not 1k...)

How about a levy on stupid ideas instead?  Cheaper, and a lot more popular.

Cornucopia count for today: 360bn+ 37bn = 397bn, or, using my calculation: 527.2bn.  Gushing!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Looks like the BoE will end up going out of the CHAPS business and something else would take it&#8217;s place&#8230;</p>
<p>And, the man cannot count either.  Here is my calculation, using this link: <a href="http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10683256/%E2%80%98The--relationship-between-the-overnight-interbank-unsecured-loan-market" rel="nofollow">http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10683256/%E2%80%98The&#8211;relationship-between-the-overnight-interbank-unsecured-loan-market</a></p>
<p>Banking days: 252<br />
Daily turnover: 22bn<br />
total: 3344bn<br />
0.05% thereof: 167.2bn</p>
<p>(also, 0.05% of 2m = 100k, not 1k&#8230;)</p>
<p>How about a levy on stupid ideas instead?  Cheaper, and a lot more popular.</p>
<p>Cornucopia count for today: 360bn+ 37bn = 397bn, or, using my calculation: 527.2bn.  Gushing!</p>
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		<title>By: Brian, follower of Deornoth</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37067</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian, follower of Deornoth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 15:02:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37067</guid>
		<description>So the tax will raise 0.05% of nothing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the tax will raise 0.05% of nothing.</p>
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		<title>By: and</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37066</link>
		<dc:creator>and</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 14:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37066</guid>
		<description>A quick Googling (search: interbank lending chaps) suggests about 20%  of overnight lending is conducted through CHAPS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A quick Googling (search: interbank lending chaps) suggests about 20%  of overnight lending is conducted through CHAPS.</p>
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		<title>By: DocBud</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/11/11/ritchies-latest-bright-idea/comment-page-1/#comment-37064</link>
		<dc:creator>DocBud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 11 Nov 2009 13:57:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=11040#comment-37064</guid>
		<description>So you can raise 37 billion in tax, why would you want to? Who will best spend that money, the tossers in government or the people they stole it from?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So you can raise 37 billion in tax, why would you want to? Who will best spend that money, the tossers in government or the people they stole it from?</p>
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