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	<title>Comments on: Erm, no</title>
	<atom:link href="http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/</link>
	<description>It is all obvious or trivial except...</description>
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		<title>By: gene berman</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-26033</link>
		<dc:creator>gene berman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-26033</guid>
		<description>Butle is correct, I believe. The intent of the sentence seems to  that of unobstrusiveness, requiring &quot;discreet.&quot;  They&#039;ve already old us there are &quot;four,&quot; so the correct meaning of &quot;discrete&quot; would still leave a superfluity (&quot;left over,&quot; perhaps?).

Mr. Butler: Good on yer! Kick &#039;em when they&#039;re down is the rule. Right square in the punctillios!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Butle is correct, I believe. The intent of the sentence seems to  that of unobstrusiveness, requiring &#8220;discreet.&#8221;  They&#8217;ve already old us there are &#8220;four,&#8221; so the correct meaning of &#8220;discrete&#8221; would still leave a superfluity (&#8220;left over,&#8221; perhaps?).</p>
<p>Mr. Butler: Good on yer! Kick &#8216;em when they&#8217;re down is the rule. Right square in the punctillios!</p>
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		<title>By: Fred Z</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-26018</link>
		<dc:creator>Fred Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:38:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-26018</guid>
		<description>I have some guy named Madoff on the line trying to sell me shares in a startup to fund this. Whaddaya think?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have some guy named Madoff on the line trying to sell me shares in a startup to fund this. Whaddaya think?</p>
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		<title>By: Devil's Kitchen</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-26014</link>
		<dc:creator>Devil's Kitchen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:30:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-26014</guid>
		<description>Michael Butler,

&lt;i&gt;&quot;And then there’s the fact that these guys can’t even spell “discreet”.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

Um...

I suggest that you discreetly revisit your dictionary. &quot;Discreet&quot; and &quot;discrete&quot; are different words with... er... two discrete meanings...

DK</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael Butler,</p>
<p><i>&#8220;And then there’s the fact that these guys can’t even spell “discreet”.&#8221;</i></p>
<p>Um&#8230;</p>
<p>I suggest that you discreetly revisit your dictionary. &#8220;Discreet&#8221; and &#8220;discrete&#8221; are different words with&#8230; er&#8230; two discrete meanings&#8230;</p>
<p>DK</p>
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		<title>By: So Much For Subtlety</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-26013</link>
		<dc:creator>So Much For Subtlety</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-26013</guid>
		<description>The first thought I had was when they said &quot;turbine&quot; they meant a jet engine.  Then it became obvious that this was another perpetual energy machine.  Not even a good one.  Perhaps they ought to go back to the jet engine?  You could run one on alcohol after all which is all biofuel tends to be.  Who wouldn&#039;t want a four jet engine powered car?  Batman eat your heart out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The first thought I had was when they said &#8220;turbine&#8221; they meant a jet engine.  Then it became obvious that this was another perpetual energy machine.  Not even a good one.  Perhaps they ought to go back to the jet engine?  You could run one on alcohol after all which is all biofuel tends to be.  Who wouldn&#8217;t want a four jet engine powered car?  Batman eat your heart out.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim Newman</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-26012</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Newman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:54:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-26012</guid>
		<description>Pogo beat me to it.  A perpetual motion machine indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pogo beat me to it.  A perpetual motion machine indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Duffin</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-26005</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Duffin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 20:43:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-26005</guid>
		<description>What Pogo said.

Didn&#039;t these tossers ever play with Meccano when they were kids, or visit the Science Museum?

Guess not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Pogo said.</p>
<p>Didn&#8217;t these tossers ever play with Meccano when they were kids, or visit the Science Museum?</p>
<p>Guess not.</p>
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		<title>By: peter</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-26002</link>
		<dc:creator>peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 18:51:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-26002</guid>
		<description>Googling &quot;RORMaxx Formula AE&quot; give 28,000+ results.

Bullsh*t travels at the speed of sound!

Watchout for the 1st gormless politician to mention &quot;wind-powered&quot; cars.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Googling &#8220;RORMaxx Formula AE&#8221; give 28,000+ results.</p>
<p>Bullsh*t travels at the speed of sound!</p>
<p>Watchout for the 1st gormless politician to mention &#8220;wind-powered&#8221; cars.</p>
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		<title>By: yachts</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-26000</link>
		<dc:creator>yachts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:51:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-26000</guid>
		<description>Whoever is doing the project, good luck with it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoever is doing the project, good luck with it.</p>
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		<title>By: MarkS</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25996</link>
		<dc:creator>MarkS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:01:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25996</guid>
		<description>And then there’s the fact that these guys can’t even spell “discreet”.

Actually it might be correct in this instance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And then there’s the fact that these guys can’t even spell “discreet”.</p>
<p>Actually it might be correct in this instance.</p>
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		<title>By: Ian B</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25994</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:14:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25994</guid>
		<description>Oh, LOL. A bit of googling inspired by the obvious fact that this is just copied from a press release (with some errors, &quot;Maxx Bricklinas&quot; is actually called Max Bricklin) reveals that this is just a project by two &lt;a href=&quot;http://keelynet.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/rormaxx-wind-powered-sports-car/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;high school kids&lt;/a&gt;!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, LOL. A bit of googling inspired by the obvious fact that this is just copied from a press release (with some errors, &#8220;Maxx Bricklinas&#8221; is actually called Max Bricklin) reveals that this is just a project by two <a href="http://keelynet.wordpress.com/2009/01/08/rormaxx-wind-powered-sports-car/" rel="nofollow">high school kids</a>!</p>
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		<title>By: Cleanthes</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25991</link>
		<dc:creator>Cleanthes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:05:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25991</guid>
		<description>Serf,

Easy: it goes faster!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Serf,</p>
<p>Easy: it goes faster!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: chris gilmour</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25989</link>
		<dc:creator>chris gilmour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:03:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25989</guid>
		<description>There was a debate about this on boingboing.net 
http://boingboing.net/2008/12/12/downwind-faster-than-1.html
The video is particularly illuminating</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was a debate about this on boingboing.net<br />
<a href="http://boingboing.net/2008/12/12/downwind-faster-than-1.html" rel="nofollow">http://boingboing.net/2008/12/12/downwind-faster-than-1.html</a><br />
The video is particularly illuminating</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ian B</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25987</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25987</guid>
		<description>Kay-

&quot;It does: if the battery is a teeny tiny hold-nothing capacity, it charges very quickly.&quot;

That&#039;s not what the context is. They article, scientifically illiterate as it is, is talking about charging time, with an implication of &quot;for the same number of Ampere hours&quot;. If you need more capacity, just fit more batteries. The limiting factor would be energy availability.

Serf-

You can&#039;t do anything with those assumptions, because without friction your turbine won&#039;t turn. Whatever derives power from the wind has to impede its flow, and the more it does so the more energy it can derive (the energy has to be extracted from the wind by slowing the wind down). But by impeding the wind, you create drag, which the engine requires energy to overcome.

The more energy you try to extract from the wind, the more energy you need for your engine; and because of inefficiencies (second Law) the extra power required for the engine will always be greater than the energy derived from the turbine. There&#039;s no way around that. If there were, you would have perpetual motion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kay-</p>
<p>&#8220;It does: if the battery is a teeny tiny hold-nothing capacity, it charges very quickly.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s not what the context is. They article, scientifically illiterate as it is, is talking about charging time, with an implication of &#8220;for the same number of Ampere hours&#8221;. If you need more capacity, just fit more batteries. The limiting factor would be energy availability.</p>
<p>Serf-</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t do anything with those assumptions, because without friction your turbine won&#8217;t turn. Whatever derives power from the wind has to impede its flow, and the more it does so the more energy it can derive (the energy has to be extracted from the wind by slowing the wind down). But by impeding the wind, you create drag, which the engine requires energy to overcome.</p>
<p>The more energy you try to extract from the wind, the more energy you need for your engine; and because of inefficiencies (second Law) the extra power required for the engine will always be greater than the energy derived from the turbine. There&#8217;s no way around that. If there were, you would have perpetual motion.</p>
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		<title>By: Gasman</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25986</link>
		<dc:creator>Gasman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:55:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25986</guid>
		<description>Serf: It goes backwards! (unless the brakes are better than the rest of the design)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Serf: It goes backwards! (unless the brakes are better than the rest of the design)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Dr Nick Ashley</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25985</link>
		<dc:creator>Dr Nick Ashley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:55:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25985</guid>
		<description>LOL. I think they need to check out the laws of therodynamics. Basically this says you cannot get a free lunch.  An alternater charges the battery owing to the forward motion of the car caused by the chemical energy of the petrol or diesel. In other words part of the fuel is charging your battery. This will be the case in this instance too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL. I think they need to check out the laws of therodynamics. Basically this says you cannot get a free lunch.  An alternater charges the battery owing to the forward motion of the car caused by the chemical energy of the petrol or diesel. In other words part of the fuel is charging your battery. This will be the case in this instance too.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael M. Butler</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25984</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael M. Butler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:55:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25984</guid>
		<description>The numbers expressed plain don&#039;t work. 

Assume the motor is 100% efficient. Assume that &quot;rac[ing] around a track for at least an hour&quot; uses all of the specified motor power, 212 kW. Sunlight will supposedly charge the battery in 1.5 hours.

So in 1.5 hours the battery will need to accumulate 212kWh.

Solar flux at Earth surface at noon at the equator is about 95 watts per square foot.

I make the solar array required at 100% efficiency to be just a tad under 1500 square feet. A square surface that size is just a bit under 38 feet on a side.

Ignore the whole air-motion energy recovery story. The &quot;charges from the car&#039;s skin&quot; story is hooey.

And then there&#039;s the fact that these guys can&#039;t even spell &quot;discreet&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The numbers expressed plain don&#8217;t work. </p>
<p>Assume the motor is 100% efficient. Assume that &#8220;rac[ing] around a track for at least an hour&#8221; uses all of the specified motor power, 212 kW. Sunlight will supposedly charge the battery in 1.5 hours.</p>
<p>So in 1.5 hours the battery will need to accumulate 212kWh.</p>
<p>Solar flux at Earth surface at noon at the equator is about 95 watts per square foot.</p>
<p>I make the solar array required at 100% efficiency to be just a tad under 1500 square feet. A square surface that size is just a bit under 38 feet on a side.</p>
<p>Ignore the whole air-motion energy recovery story. The &#8220;charges from the car&#8217;s skin&#8221; story is hooey.</p>
<p>And then there&#8217;s the fact that these guys can&#8217;t even spell &#8220;discreet&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Serf</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25983</link>
		<dc:creator>Serf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:29:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25983</guid>
		<description>Lets assume that it is 100% efficient and has no friction. What happens when there is a headwind?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lets assume that it is 100% efficient and has no friction. What happens when there is a headwind?</p>
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		<title>By: marksany</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25981</link>
		<dc:creator>marksany</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:09:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25981</guid>
		<description>I hope they don&#039;t try to patent it. The patent office has rules that forbid it from patenting perpetual motion machines like this one. I guess they haven&#039;t heard of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Perhaps they are associated with Steorn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hope they don&#8217;t try to patent it. The patent office has rules that forbid it from patenting perpetual motion machines like this one. I guess they haven&#8217;t heard of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Perhaps they are associated with Steorn.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Kay Tie</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25978</link>
		<dc:creator>Kay Tie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:01:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25978</guid>
		<description>&quot;The charging time has nothing to do with the battery.&quot;

It does: if the battery is a teeny tiny hold-nothing capacity, it charges very quickly. Even from solar.

I was going to send this story to Ben Goldacre as (alas yet another) example of fucknut arts graduates let loose on an engineering story. If they&#039;d done their job and just recycled the press release we could have stripped away the marketing shite ourselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The charging time has nothing to do with the battery.&#8221;</p>
<p>It does: if the battery is a teeny tiny hold-nothing capacity, it charges very quickly. Even from solar.</p>
<p>I was going to send this story to Ben Goldacre as (alas yet another) example of fucknut arts graduates let loose on an engineering story. If they&#8217;d done their job and just recycled the press release we could have stripped away the marketing shite ourselves.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Ian B</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2009/01/12/erm-no-5/comment-page-1/#comment-25977</link>
		<dc:creator>Ian B</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jan 2009 10:10:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/?p=5668#comment-25977</guid>
		<description>Yes, it&#039;s a perpetual motion machine, no different from trying to drive a generator from the motor the generator is connected to, just with the wind as an intermediary which makes it seem more plausible.

Also-

&quot;But a new prototype battery could see this time reduced to just six minutes.&quot;

The charging time has nothing to do with the battery. It can&#039;t charge any faster than the solar cells can provide energy.

Either our dynamic duo of designers are physics ignorami, or it&#039;s a scam seeking naive investors. And another example of how the journalistic profession&#039;s claims of how they are the guardians of standards in reporting are complete rubbish.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, it&#8217;s a perpetual motion machine, no different from trying to drive a generator from the motor the generator is connected to, just with the wind as an intermediary which makes it seem more plausible.</p>
<p>Also-</p>
<p>&#8220;But a new prototype battery could see this time reduced to just six minutes.&#8221;</p>
<p>The charging time has nothing to do with the battery. It can&#8217;t charge any faster than the solar cells can provide energy.</p>
<p>Either our dynamic duo of designers are physics ignorami, or it&#8217;s a scam seeking naive investors. And another example of how the journalistic profession&#8217;s claims of how they are the guardians of standards in reporting are complete rubbish.</p>
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