Tim Worstall

24 responses so far ↓

• 1 KMcC // Sep 2, 2008 at 3:46 pm

  N0t this old nonsense again, Tim.

  Here’s a link to a recent LangLog posting on this very subject less + countable nouns is as old as English itself, the ‘distinction’ is completely arbitrary and was only formulated in the 18th century coz some bloke thought fewer sounded nicer.

  http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=552

  If you’re going to opine on linguistic or grammatical topics, it might be worthwhile investigating what descriptive linguisticians have to say on the matter.

• 2 knirirr // Sep 2, 2008 at 4:02 pm

  …coz some bloke thought fewer sounded nicer.

  Whoever that bloke was, he had a good point.

• 3 Zorro // Sep 2, 2008 at 4:04 pm

  IF you actually listen to what people say, and I believe the language actually IS what people use, not what the Oxford manual of style says they shouw use – then less is perfectly valid. Sorry Tim!

• 4 Zorro // Sep 2, 2008 at 4:05 pm

  bleurrr – “shouw” should be “should”, apologs for mad fingers attack!

• 5 Former Tory // Sep 2, 2008 at 4:12 pm

  If fewer people were less ignorant these arguments wouldn’t arise so often.

  If less people were fewer ignorant these arguments wouldn’t arise so often.

  The number of people who’ll talk any amount of horseshit on things linguistic, is breathtaking.

  The amount of people who’ll talk any number of horseshit on things linguistic, is breathtaking.

  Discuss

  Discuss.

• 6 Peter Risdon // Sep 2, 2008 at 4:24 pm

  Not all common usage is more better than a strict application of words. But since the use of “less” for countable items goes back to the very root of the word, and has been continuous ever since, it’s probably OK.

  Rather like split infinitives, in fact.

• 7 Little Black Sambo // Sep 2, 2008 at 4:54 pm

  If it sounds bad (and it does) that is one good reason for avoiding it. The line in “Amazing grace” – “We’ve no less days to sing thy praise” is a mistake. “Sorry, Zorro”.

• 8 JuliaM // Sep 2, 2008 at 5:32 pm

  “The line in “Amazing grace” – “We’ve no less days to sing thy praise” is a mistake.”

  That’s hardly the worst grammatical error in a song – try ‘Live And Let Die’:

  “But if this ever changin world,
  in which we live in…”

• 9 David Gillies // Sep 2, 2008 at 6:17 pm

  That’s a common mondegreen, JuliaM. Paul McCartney’s not that illiterate. The real line is “but if this ever-changin’ world in which we’re livin’…” It might not be the most felicitous phrasing, but it’s grammatically correct.

  If you really want an ungrammatical song, how about “Bess, You Is My Woman Now”?

• 10 the great redacto // Sep 2, 2008 at 6:20 pm

  On the website, not the paper. There are fewer of us than there used to be. Or is it less?

• 11 JuliaM // Sep 2, 2008 at 6:25 pm

  “That’s a common mondegreen, JuliaM. “

  Really? The lyrics websites I went to disagree…

  Mind you, they probably all feed off each other. Listening to it again, it still sounds like the former.

  “…“Bess, You Is My Woman Now”..?”

  Ugh!

  There’s another one that always bugs me when I hear it, but I can’t recall it atm.

• 12 RobtE // Sep 2, 2008 at 6:39 pm

  There’s another one that always bugs me when I hear it, but I can’t recall it atm.

  “Is You Is Or Is You Ain’t My Baby”, perhaps?

• 13 diogenes1960 // Sep 2, 2008 at 6:53 pm

  “If less people were fewer ignorant these arguments wouldn’t arise so often.”

  The whole point, Former Tory, is that you are trying to use fewer to make the comparative form of the adjective. This has nothing to do with using “less” with countable nouns. It is simply an error.

• 14 JuliaM // Sep 2, 2008 at 7:38 pm

  ““Is You Is Or Is You Ain’t My Baby”, perhaps?”

  Oooh, no, but that is another horrid example, to be sure.

  I just remembered it – Yvonne Elliman, “If I Can’t Have You”:

  “If I can’t have you,
  I don’t want nobody, baby”

• 15 diogenes1960 // Sep 2, 2008 at 8:38 pm

  the ultimate in neo-liberal selfishness. a song from the roaring 20s:

  I ain’t gonna give nobody none of my jelly-roll!

  is that a triple negative?

• 16 Mr Eugenides // Sep 2, 2008 at 10:59 pm

  I think Abba win this:

  since many years I haven’t seen a rifle in your hand…

• 17 Mr Eugenides // Sep 2, 2008 at 11:00 pm

  Yes, I like Abba.

  What of it?

• 18 Mr Eugenides // Sep 2, 2008 at 11:01 pm

  Screw all of you. I’m off to have sex. With a woman.

  What?

• 19 Former Tory // Sep 2, 2008 at 11:19 pm

  The whole point, Former Tory…

  Yes, Diogenes; thank you. How might I have managed without you?

• 20 JuliaM // Sep 3, 2008 at 6:46 am

  “Yes, I like Abba.

  What of it?”

  Heh! Judging by the success of ‘Mamma Mia’, who doesn’t like Abba…?

• 21 john b // Sep 3, 2008 at 10:53 am

  *raises hand*

  On the original topic, this says it all…

• 22 Stephen // Sep 3, 2008 at 1:43 pm

  “…“Bess, You Is My Woman Now”..?”

  That’s a complete mis-quote! It’s “Dave, you’re my wife now”.

  And on the original topic: who cares if some modern-day pedant can prove that some 18th-century pedant invented the rule, rather than the rule having been in existence since Old English: fewer does sound better than less.

• 23 Stephen // Sep 3, 2008 at 1:46 pm

  It’s amusing that not only does KMcC obviously spend his days googling for this so he can put people right, but he obviously believes that a single link to Language Log should settle the issue forever: how can you possibly go back to your error-prone ways when Language Log has been quoted, Tim?

• 24 KMcC // Sep 3, 2008 at 3:18 pm

  Stephen – I don’t need to google this or other instances of usage peevery – people practically flaunt their ignorance and inchoate ideas relanguage nonstop.

  And, when it comes to advice on usage, I tend to trust professionals who describe how language is used, rather than prescribe what they’d like to see . Language Log is a written by a collection of professional descriptive linguisticians and grammarians.

  Incidentally, I never suggested Tim should go sin no more, or anything like it; just that he should cease to repeat the baseless claim that less+countables is somehow ungrammatical. There’s a bit of a difference.

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