The point about an NVQ is that it demonstrates basic reading and numeracy skills. Since the percentages of prisoners with writing, arithmetic and reading skills below the average 11-year-old are 80%, 65% and 50% respectively, this is worth doing. There is strong research showing that giving prisoners basic literacy/numeracy skills brings a significant reduction in reoffending rates.

‘Not Very Qualifieds’..? I wouldn’t have thought so, no.

You are trying to swindle us. All you want to do is “support” the crooks, and make them love you.

Er no, Monty, I’m interested in truth and fairness and practical outcomes. I’m not trying to swindle anyone – haven’t I made it clear that I’m ignorant and trying to find out more?

What I’m interested in is what people think happens, what actually happens, and how it works – the latter meaning, does the punishment suit our notion of justice, and will it reduce the likelihood of reoffending. From what I understand, constant punishment and negativity (for example) does not reduce reoffending – there has to be some sort of reward, some sort of positivity in the process – in other words, it is all very well punishing criminals, and feeling satisfied that they have been brought to book, but there seems little point if they are just as likely to commit crime when they come out. Some people might respond, lock them all up and throw away the key – well, (1) that’s impractical, (2) it doesn’t fit the notion that the punishment should fit the crime. Perhaps the latter is something some people feel we should do away with – I don’t.

What I mean by “I don’t ‘get’ prison” is, I don’t understand what we as a society want from it, we seem conflicted about it, people get very emotional about it. Again this relates to punishment and recidivism. I’m sure everyone wants to reduce recidivism, but on the other hand some people think prisoners should be punished 24/7. Those things seem mutually exclusive.

Apparently the individual prisons and young offender institutes have their own systems of rewards and sanctions, learning and working. I wonder if there has been any research into the rates of reoffending after prisoners are released from those individual prisons. Some people complain that prisoners are allowed to gain NVQs while inside – well, do NVQs help?

I think that’s a good point about our agreement with the authorities to keep law and order. But it must be noted that our perception of what goes on in prison may not fit reality. So if there is to be a reckoning, I hope it isn’t based on ignorance.

Repeat shoplifting. Benefit fraud. Heroin possession. Burglary of unoccupied comercial premises. A large proportion of people who’re *sent* to prison get sent there for things that are indeed trivial.

(True, a large proportion of people who’re *in* prison were sent there for things that are more serious; the difference arises because of relative sentence lengths).

I’d have thought that was blindingly obvious – it comes from seeing people playing the system, time after time after time, with little or no punishment. Take this case for example…

Eventually, enough disgust with the system will build up and up in the law-abiding populace until there is a reckoning.

My apologies of my earlier comment wasn’t clear. I was agreeing with the main thrust of Tim’s point; the observations on the nature of HRA are my own.

The tenor of some of the comments here is troubling. Where does this anger come from?

My apologies if my earlier comment wasn’t clear. I was agreeing with the main thrust of Tim’s point – my comments about the nature of HRA were my own observations.

The tenor of some of the comments here is troubling. Where does all this anger come from?

Yes. Both.

“are prisoners “allowed to spend all day on the PlayStation””

I see you’ve answered your own question…

“In return, we expect punishment of the guilty. That’s the price.”

Monty is correct, here. You should give some consideration to what might happen if the price continues to be dodged by those in charge of the penal system. It won’t be pretty, I can assure you.

Well there you go, you see.

Prison itself is mandatory, it is generally not something you can take or leave. It is a punishment for whatever offence you just committed against another human being. And it must have been pretty bad, because they don’t bang you up for parking on double yellow lines.

It is mandatory because the offender, being not at all contrite about what he has done, would never consider doing anything to make amends. He is, in short, a lying, violent shitheel.

And we have a choice don’t we. We could dispense justice ourselves, on the streets, and that would not be very edifying, or we can agree to be bound by the legal arm of the state. There is a contract at the heart of that.

We, the people, undertake not to unleash our most vengeful retribution on crooks in an uncontrolled manner. We draw in our horns, and back off. In return, we expect punishment of the guilty. That’s the price.

You are trying to swindle us. All you want to do is “support” the crooks, and make them love you. I don’t mind you wasting your life doing this, so long as I am not paying you to do it.

Geoff Dobson, deputy director of the Prison Reform Trust, said that because of overcrowding, prisoners were “spending more and more time in their cells doing nothing”.

And are prisoners “allowed to spend all day on the PlayStation”, or is that something you’ve made up / read in the Daily Wail?

“I don’t recall being asked…” – You might be surprised by the number of things the Government does without running them by you first.

Monty, apparently prisoners do get the opportunity to work and learn in prison, including being involved in the production of fresh produce. I do not know whether participation is mandatory nor whether or not they collapse into bed at the end of the day as a result.

That people find easier, less challenging ways to do their job isn’t a new thing. I don’t recall being asked if I:

a) wanted my tax money to be spent on giving prisoners a cushy deal, or
b) wanted prisoners to idulge in ‘entertainment’ while incarcerated

“I guess that’s chain gangs from lights-on at 6AM to lights-out at 10PM, right?”

Hardly, they can have two 20 min breaks for refreshment (am & pm) and a 30 min midday meal. I’m not a monster, you know…

“It should be hard work, with ample potential for self improvement, learning new skills, and making some recompense to society. “

Precisely. Having them do nothing, or worse, spend all day on the Playstation, isn’t doing anyone any good, least of all them.

Result!

JuliaM: I guess that’s chain gangs from lights-on at 6AM to lights-out at 10PM, right? Damn, I’m glad to share a country with civilised types like yourself…