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	<title>Comments on: What Joy</title>
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	<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/</link>
	<description>It is all obvious or trivial except...</description>
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		<title>By: Cleanthes</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/comment-page-1/#comment-15128</link>
		<dc:creator>Cleanthes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:12:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/#comment-15128</guid>
		<description>&quot;freer thinkers and socialists alike may be preventing the natural and proper evolution of societal views.&quot;

That&#039;s a feature not a bug. Leftists don&#039;t want you to think for yourself because then you&#039;ll start to question what they think and what they tell you you should think.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;freer thinkers and socialists alike may be preventing the natural and proper evolution of societal views.&#8221;</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a feature not a bug. Leftists don&#8217;t want you to think for yourself because then you&#8217;ll start to question what they think and what they tell you you should think.</p>
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		<title>By: Corin Vestey</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/comment-page-1/#comment-15059</link>
		<dc:creator>Corin Vestey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 12:08:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/#comment-15059</guid>
		<description>I think Cameron is making a wider point than Tim gives him credit for. I don&#039;t see how Cameron can mean that government will be the arbiter of right and wrong, given his emphasis on personal responsibility. 

Also society has to have positive values of some kind to exist in any coherent form, we have been living (apart) under the yoke of politically correct, non-judgementalism now for what seems like an eternity and the results are, I hope we all agree, not that pretty. 

It may be that some of societies&#039; judgements are not to the taste of everyone but the current alternative - that the total absence of judgement and discrimination is the only permissable standpoint - is surely far worse in its blanket failure. 

Furthermore, the denial of discrimination negates the idea of the progress and evolution of people&#039;s thinking and sentiments by rendering real debate and analysis impossible and in some cases potentially illegal.

So by denying society the right to say &#039;no, we don&#039;t believe that form of behaviour is acceptable in this country&#039;, and simply forcing measures upon an unwilling and gagged populace, freer thinkers and socialists alike may be preventing the natural and proper evolution of societal views.

You can&#039;t rely on legislation to demand acceptance of the liberal viewpoint in all matters, in my view, it has to arrive naturally if it is to mean a damn and attitudes on the ground are to really reflect those values. This is not what we have now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Cameron is making a wider point than Tim gives him credit for. I don&#8217;t see how Cameron can mean that government will be the arbiter of right and wrong, given his emphasis on personal responsibility. </p>
<p>Also society has to have positive values of some kind to exist in any coherent form, we have been living (apart) under the yoke of politically correct, non-judgementalism now for what seems like an eternity and the results are, I hope we all agree, not that pretty. </p>
<p>It may be that some of societies&#8217; judgements are not to the taste of everyone but the current alternative &#8211; that the total absence of judgement and discrimination is the only permissable standpoint &#8211; is surely far worse in its blanket failure. </p>
<p>Furthermore, the denial of discrimination negates the idea of the progress and evolution of people&#8217;s thinking and sentiments by rendering real debate and analysis impossible and in some cases potentially illegal.</p>
<p>So by denying society the right to say &#8216;no, we don&#8217;t believe that form of behaviour is acceptable in this country&#8217;, and simply forcing measures upon an unwilling and gagged populace, freer thinkers and socialists alike may be preventing the natural and proper evolution of societal views.</p>
<p>You can&#8217;t rely on legislation to demand acceptance of the liberal viewpoint in all matters, in my view, it has to arrive naturally if it is to mean a damn and attitudes on the ground are to really reflect those values. This is not what we have now.</p>
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		<title>By: Cinnamon</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/comment-page-1/#comment-15050</link>
		<dc:creator>Cinnamon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:18:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/#comment-15050</guid>
		<description>Addendum:

Don&#039;t tell people what is wrong.

Tell them what is right and they&#039;ll work the rest out for themselves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Addendum:</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t tell people what is wrong.</p>
<p>Tell them what is right and they&#8217;ll work the rest out for themselves.</p>
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		<title>By: Cinnamon</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/comment-page-1/#comment-15049</link>
		<dc:creator>Cinnamon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 11:16:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/#comment-15049</guid>
		<description>The problem for me is that the future PM thinks almost like a socialist student leader in this respect.

Punishing the obese by making them social outcasts and refusing them NHS treatment isn&#039;t going to produce shiny happy, slim people(I mentioned this elsewhere, but an avg. 15 successes out of 10000 dieters after 5 years  is, uh, not a promising result for diets) 

Cameron is asking the impossible (note the equivalence of obese people with drug addicts and alcoholics, who have similar rehab rates)  here, and making it a moral pivot.

He is a very stupid man.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem for me is that the future PM thinks almost like a socialist student leader in this respect.</p>
<p>Punishing the obese by making them social outcasts and refusing them NHS treatment isn&#8217;t going to produce shiny happy, slim people(I mentioned this elsewhere, but an avg. 15 successes out of 10000 dieters after 5 years  is, uh, not a promising result for diets) </p>
<p>Cameron is asking the impossible (note the equivalence of obese people with drug addicts and alcoholics, who have similar rehab rates)  here, and making it a moral pivot.</p>
<p>He is a very stupid man.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/comment-page-1/#comment-15032</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Jul 2008 09:04:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/07/08/what-joy/#comment-15032</guid>
		<description>Yup thanks Dave a nice conflation of personal responsibility (excellent, yes please) and morality (er, whose?). I think it&#039;s fair to say that we want a situation where it&#039;s OK to say to someone you made this choice we aren&#039;t paying for it or in some cases, now you&#039;re going to pay for it. But we don&#039;t necessarily want to say it&#039;s wrong for you to make that choice. Despite the muddle I&#039;d say it&#039;s a step in the right direction.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yup thanks Dave a nice conflation of personal responsibility (excellent, yes please) and morality (er, whose?). I think it&#8217;s fair to say that we want a situation where it&#8217;s OK to say to someone you made this choice we aren&#8217;t paying for it or in some cases, now you&#8217;re going to pay for it. But we don&#8217;t necessarily want to say it&#8217;s wrong for you to make that choice. Despite the muddle I&#8217;d say it&#8217;s a step in the right direction.</p>
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