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	<title>Comments on: Bin Taxes Again</title>
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	<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/</link>
	<description>It is all obvious or trivial except...</description>
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		<title>By: Andy</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14146</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 17:24:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14146</guid>
		<description>We are soon to see the largest increase in fly tipping during anyone&#039;s lifetime. And is there a more democratic way than that of destroying this law? No.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We are soon to see the largest increase in fly tipping during anyone&#8217;s lifetime. And is there a more democratic way than that of destroying this law? No.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Rigby</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14070</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Rigby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Jun 2008 07:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14070</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not one to wring my hands over &quot;food miles&quot;, but it&#039;s odd how viral mentalists fail to compare recycling miles vs landfill miles. Ie wouldn&#039;t it produce less CO2 for a few big lorrys to collect &amp; bury our waste locally, than a fleet of little lorries collecting, sorting, and shipping off to numerous recycling profiteers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not one to wring my hands over &#8220;food miles&#8221;, but it&#8217;s odd how viral mentalists fail to compare recycling miles vs landfill miles. Ie wouldn&#8217;t it produce less CO2 for a few big lorrys to collect &amp; bury our waste locally, than a fleet of little lorries collecting, sorting, and shipping off to numerous recycling profiteers.</p>
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		<title>By: dearieme</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14062</link>
		<dc:creator>dearieme</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14062</guid>
		<description>Call me a wide-eyed innocent, but I suspect that bungs have changed hands.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Call me a wide-eyed innocent, but I suspect that bungs have changed hands.</p>
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		<title>By: Eva</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14057</link>
		<dc:creator>Eva</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:19:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14057</guid>
		<description>http://www.uoregon.edu/~recycle/AOR_facts.htm

Oregon State (USA) has had recycling laws since the late 80&#039;s and they seem to work rather well, without the need to terrorise householders.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.uoregon.edu/~recycle/AOR_facts.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.uoregon.edu/~recycle/AOR_facts.htm</a></p>
<p>Oregon State (USA) has had recycling laws since the late 80&#8242;s and they seem to work rather well, without the need to terrorise householders.</p>
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		<title>By: BlacquesJacquesShellacques</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14047</link>
		<dc:creator>BlacquesJacquesShellacques</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:27:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14047</guid>
		<description>I have a solution. Let&#039;s use a widely distributed sampling system to measure the statistical totals of what people really wish to do with their land and their garbage. We&#039;ll let everyone acquire &#039;garbage valuation and measurement tokens&#039;. We&#039;ll let landowners have &#039;land valuation and measurement tokens&#039;. We&#039;ll let recyclers have &#039;Recycling measurement tokens&#039;. Reflecting a personal bias I&#039;ll call the units of these latter tokens &#039;BullShits&#039;.

To acquire tokens the various participants will have to work, scheme, cheat, invest, inherit or similar.

Then the garbage producers, recyclers  and landowners can exchange these tokens as they wish. Eventually we&#039;ll find out what people really want by watching who has the most tokens.

How many BullShits will be equal to one land token? Who knows.

Is this not an interesting and clever idea?

For shorthand we&#039;ll call the tokens all &#039;money&#039; and the process the &#039;market&#039;.

Voila, a perfect measure of what people really want.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have a solution. Let&#8217;s use a widely distributed sampling system to measure the statistical totals of what people really wish to do with their land and their garbage. We&#8217;ll let everyone acquire &#8216;garbage valuation and measurement tokens&#8217;. We&#8217;ll let landowners have &#8216;land valuation and measurement tokens&#8217;. We&#8217;ll let recyclers have &#8216;Recycling measurement tokens&#8217;. Reflecting a personal bias I&#8217;ll call the units of these latter tokens &#8216;BullShits&#8217;.</p>
<p>To acquire tokens the various participants will have to work, scheme, cheat, invest, inherit or similar.</p>
<p>Then the garbage producers, recyclers  and landowners can exchange these tokens as they wish. Eventually we&#8217;ll find out what people really want by watching who has the most tokens.</p>
<p>How many BullShits will be equal to one land token? Who knows.</p>
<p>Is this not an interesting and clever idea?</p>
<p>For shorthand we&#8217;ll call the tokens all &#8216;money&#8217; and the process the &#8216;market&#8217;.</p>
<p>Voila, a perfect measure of what people really want.</p>
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		<title>By: JK</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14044</link>
		<dc:creator>JK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14044</guid>
		<description>Tim, you&#039;re right to assert that there is no theoretical reason for a shortage of landfill space. In fact, the decreasing amount of void is due to private sector operators not wishing to invest in new space (given EU targets for reducing landfill), rather than the EU not allowing us to licence new space.

Again you make the point that we collect methane from landfill. In fact it is estimated that we only capture around 85% of methane emissions. We would have to capture 95%+ for landfill to be a comparable option to alternative treatment + disposal methods from a climate change perspective.

According to the European Environment Agency the waste sector in the EU-15 reduced its greenhouse gas emissions by 32% 1990-2003. This was primarily due to landfill diversion. That is why we are being asked to do it. It may be a blunt policy response, but that is a perfectly reasonable base rationale.

Tim adds: Jacob, I&#039;ve read the WRAP report too. I&#039;ve no doubt that some recycling is economically efficient. Heck, I&#039;ve done enough of it myself, buying up scrap metal for it to be reprocessed. I&#039;m also fully aware that there are recycling processes which don&#039;t make sense in purely market terms, but which do when we add in the costs of the externalities.

However, there&#039;s something of a shell game going on here. People are (like you, quoting 1990-2003 figures) looking at the benefits of some recycling and then insisting that more recycling will bring further such benefits.

This ain&#039;t necessarily so. Sure, if recycling some aluminium cans brings benefits then recycling more of them will bring more. But it doesn&#039;t follow that if recycling Al cans brings benefits, that composting food waste does. Or nappies, or glass bottles, whatever.

I&#039;m not at all saying that recycling is a bad idea. Only that recycling some things is a good one, recycling others is a bad one. And unfortunately, we&#039;re in the middle  of a mania that insists that recycling everything is a good idea. It isn&#039;t.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, you&#8217;re right to assert that there is no theoretical reason for a shortage of landfill space. In fact, the decreasing amount of void is due to private sector operators not wishing to invest in new space (given EU targets for reducing landfill), rather than the EU not allowing us to licence new space.</p>
<p>Again you make the point that we collect methane from landfill. In fact it is estimated that we only capture around 85% of methane emissions. We would have to capture 95%+ for landfill to be a comparable option to alternative treatment + disposal methods from a climate change perspective.</p>
<p>According to the European Environment Agency the waste sector in the EU-15 reduced its greenhouse gas emissions by 32% 1990-2003. This was primarily due to landfill diversion. That is why we are being asked to do it. It may be a blunt policy response, but that is a perfectly reasonable base rationale.</p>
<p>Tim adds: Jacob, I&#8217;ve read the WRAP report too. I&#8217;ve no doubt that some recycling is economically efficient. Heck, I&#8217;ve done enough of it myself, buying up scrap metal for it to be reprocessed. I&#8217;m also fully aware that there are recycling processes which don&#8217;t make sense in purely market terms, but which do when we add in the costs of the externalities.</p>
<p>However, there&#8217;s something of a shell game going on here. People are (like you, quoting 1990-2003 figures) looking at the benefits of some recycling and then insisting that more recycling will bring further such benefits.</p>
<p>This ain&#8217;t necessarily so. Sure, if recycling some aluminium cans brings benefits then recycling more of them will bring more. But it doesn&#8217;t follow that if recycling Al cans brings benefits, that composting food waste does. Or nappies, or glass bottles, whatever.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not at all saying that recycling is a bad idea. Only that recycling some things is a good one, recycling others is a bad one. And unfortunately, we&#8217;re in the middle  of a mania that insists that recycling everything is a good idea. It isn&#8217;t.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Wadsworth</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14043</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wadsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14043</guid>
		<description>Kit, on the whole, hypothecating taxes is just a gimmick (see National insurance) but with stuff like fuel duties = road maintenance; &#039;rubbish duty&#039; = covers collection costs, where&#039;s the problem?

Tim adds: the latter is a fee for a service, not a tax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kit, on the whole, hypothecating taxes is just a gimmick (see National insurance) but with stuff like fuel duties = road maintenance; &#8216;rubbish duty&#8217; = covers collection costs, where&#8217;s the problem?</p>
<p>Tim adds: the latter is a fee for a service, not a tax.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14039</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:18:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14039</guid>
		<description>Barcoded bin bags - check.
Lockable bins - check.
Huge increase in fly-tipping and waste just being dumped on the pavement in the middle of the night - check.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Barcoded bin bags &#8211; check.<br />
Lockable bins &#8211; check.<br />
Huge increase in fly-tipping and waste just being dumped on the pavement in the middle of the night &#8211; check.</p>
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		<title>By: Kit</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14032</link>
		<dc:creator>Kit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14032</guid>
		<description>Mark, I&#039;m sorry to disagree with you but hypothecated taxes are a bad idea.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I&#8217;m sorry to disagree with you but hypothecated taxes are a bad idea.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Wadsworth</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14029</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wadsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:44:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14029</guid>
		<description>Nigel missed a right old trick on QT last night, when he tried to challenge DD on the EU, and DD said it had nothing to do with the EU; he was  campaigning &lt;i&gt;inter alia&lt;/i&gt; against councils snooping on people&#039;s bins ... 

Anyway, this gives me a golden opportunity to link to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://markwadsworth.blogspot.com/2008/03/waste-of-nations.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;MW waste manifesto&lt;/a&gt;, the upshot being it is stupid charging people for waste collection - the cost of waste collection should be added to the cost of new goods as they are sold (in place of VAT).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nigel missed a right old trick on QT last night, when he tried to challenge DD on the EU, and DD said it had nothing to do with the EU; he was  campaigning <i>inter alia</i> against councils snooping on people&#8217;s bins &#8230; </p>
<p>Anyway, this gives me a golden opportunity to link to the <a href="http://markwadsworth.blogspot.com/2008/03/waste-of-nations.html" rel="nofollow">MW waste manifesto</a>, the upshot being it is stupid charging people for waste collection &#8211; the cost of waste collection should be added to the cost of new goods as they are sold (in place of VAT).</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Gilmour</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/comment-page-1/#comment-14025</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Gilmour</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:23:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2008/06/20/bin-taxes-again/#comment-14025</guid>
		<description>Isn&#039;t rubbish collection included in the services paid for in council tax? Are they now unable to adquately provide this service?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Isn&#8217;t rubbish collection included in the services paid for in council tax? Are they now unable to adquately provide this service?</p>
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