<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Polly On Taxation</title>
	<atom:link href="http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/</link>
	<description>It is all obvious or trivial except...</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 18 Mar 2010 22:59:56 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: Dipper</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/comment-page-1/#comment-3449</link>
		<dc:creator>Dipper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2007 23:15:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/#comment-3449</guid>
		<description>&quot;Alan Rusbridger who took a tax efficient £175,000 addition to his pension fund as a bonus&quot;

All this does is delay paying tax on the money until he takes it at a later date. Which is no different to your pension. Why is this a problem?

Tim adds: The only reason it&#039;s a problem is that Polly T has just denounced those who practice tax avoidance: ie, her own boss.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Alan Rusbridger who took a tax efficient £175,000 addition to his pension fund as a bonus&#8221;</p>
<p>All this does is delay paying tax on the money until he takes it at a later date. Which is no different to your pension. Why is this a problem?</p>
<p>Tim adds: The only reason it&#8217;s a problem is that Polly T has just denounced those who practice tax avoidance: ie, her own boss.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Wadsworth</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/comment-page-1/#comment-3249</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wadsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:43:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/#comment-3249</guid>
		<description>&quot; Tim adds: ... this rather assumes that we want increased investment by extant firms, rather than increased investment in new firms. And that isn’t, by any means, an assumption that I’m happy to make.&quot;

Woah! I am completely indifferent whether it is existing or new firms that are expanding or contracting to fit in with the markets, that&#039;s up to them to decide what&#039;s best for them. 

In any event, VAT and Er&#039;s NI are real killers for new start-ups; but they can be pretty indifferent about corporation tax for the first year or two until they start making profits, and they then have nine months from end of first year of net profits (after deducting losses b/f) to make the first payment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8221; Tim adds: &#8230; this rather assumes that we want increased investment by extant firms, rather than increased investment in new firms. And that isn’t, by any means, an assumption that I’m happy to make.&#8221;</p>
<p>Woah! I am completely indifferent whether it is existing or new firms that are expanding or contracting to fit in with the markets, that&#8217;s up to them to decide what&#8217;s best for them. </p>
<p>In any event, VAT and Er&#8217;s NI are real killers for new start-ups; but they can be pretty indifferent about corporation tax for the first year or two until they start making profits, and they then have nine months from end of first year of net profits (after deducting losses b/f) to make the first payment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Johnathan Pearce</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/comment-page-1/#comment-3225</link>
		<dc:creator>Johnathan Pearce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2007 10:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/#comment-3225</guid>
		<description>I think Johnb should stop making an ass of himself.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Johnb should stop making an ass of himself.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: David VV</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/comment-page-1/#comment-3210</link>
		<dc:creator>David VV</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 22:53:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/#comment-3210</guid>
		<description>Is it just me or do left leaning commentators in almost every European country claim their taxes are among the lowest in the western world.  Something&#039;s gotta give here.  The continuation of the communist party in Germany claims they have amongst the lowest personnel taxes in the West all the while conveniently forgetting that a employee pays 20 to 30% in health care, pension, unemployment tax, solidarity tax before they even start counting the income tax.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is it just me or do left leaning commentators in almost every European country claim their taxes are among the lowest in the western world.  Something&#8217;s gotta give here.  The continuation of the communist party in Germany claims they have amongst the lowest personnel taxes in the West all the while conveniently forgetting that a employee pays 20 to 30% in health care, pension, unemployment tax, solidarity tax before they even start counting the income tax.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Mark Wadsworth</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/comment-page-1/#comment-3204</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Wadsworth</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 21:01:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/#comment-3204</guid>
		<description>Tim, your figure for Germany is misleading - the cunning Germans split it up into 25% corp tax plus up to another 15% &#039;trade tax&#039; on top, calculated on the same profits (but with add backs for interest).

Also, corp tax is not the worst tax, the worst taxes are VAT (a turnover tax, from the point of view of economic incidence, increases price, reduces profits and depresses output) and Employer&#039;s National Insurance (depresses wages and employment levels far more directly that corp tax).

Further, you only pay corp tax if you are making profits - unless you do something daft, corp tax doesn&#039;t put you out of business.

As opposed to VAT and Er&#039;s NI that you have to pay whether you are profitable or not, so easily sending low-margin/labour intensive businesses into losses and hence shutting them down.

Finally, by and large, there is no corp tax on REINVESTED (as apposed to retained) profits, if you REINVEST the money in training, market research, staff training and so on, you get a tax deduction for it - you don&#039;t pay tax on the money that you reinvest.

Prof Mezian Lasfer has a cunning argument that HIGHER corp tax rates lead to MORE reinvestment and MORE employment, on teh basis that it is better to use the profits to expand (tax free )that it is to leave it in the bank and give half to the Treasury.

Tim adds: I understand the logic of corporation tax increasing reinvestment in the situation you describe. However, this rather assumes that we want increased investment by extant firms, rather than increased investment in new firms. And that isn&#039;t, by any means, an assumption that I&#039;m happy to make.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tim, your figure for Germany is misleading &#8211; the cunning Germans split it up into 25% corp tax plus up to another 15% &#8216;trade tax&#8217; on top, calculated on the same profits (but with add backs for interest).</p>
<p>Also, corp tax is not the worst tax, the worst taxes are VAT (a turnover tax, from the point of view of economic incidence, increases price, reduces profits and depresses output) and Employer&#8217;s National Insurance (depresses wages and employment levels far more directly that corp tax).</p>
<p>Further, you only pay corp tax if you are making profits &#8211; unless you do something daft, corp tax doesn&#8217;t put you out of business.</p>
<p>As opposed to VAT and Er&#8217;s NI that you have to pay whether you are profitable or not, so easily sending low-margin/labour intensive businesses into losses and hence shutting them down.</p>
<p>Finally, by and large, there is no corp tax on REINVESTED (as apposed to retained) profits, if you REINVEST the money in training, market research, staff training and so on, you get a tax deduction for it &#8211; you don&#8217;t pay tax on the money that you reinvest.</p>
<p>Prof Mezian Lasfer has a cunning argument that HIGHER corp tax rates lead to MORE reinvestment and MORE employment, on teh basis that it is better to use the profits to expand (tax free )that it is to leave it in the bank and give half to the Treasury.</p>
<p>Tim adds: I understand the logic of corporation tax increasing reinvestment in the situation you describe. However, this rather assumes that we want increased investment by extant firms, rather than increased investment in new firms. And that isn&#8217;t, by any means, an assumption that I&#8217;m happy to make.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/comment-page-1/#comment-3199</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 19:27:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/#comment-3199</guid>
		<description>@ Tim - your quote made 2 true statements (corporation tax is not paid by the company because it&#039;s just a convenient fictional entity, and there is likely to be some negative impact on workers&#039; wages), but joined them to createa false implication (100% of corporation tax rises will be made up out of workers&#039; wages).

And I&#039;m sceptical of that paper&#039;s conclusions... I&#039;ll read it when I get the chance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Tim &#8211; your quote made 2 true statements (corporation tax is not paid by the company because it&#8217;s just a convenient fictional entity, and there is likely to be some negative impact on workers&#8217; wages), but joined them to createa false implication (100% of corporation tax rises will be made up out of workers&#8217; wages).</p>
<p>And I&#8217;m sceptical of that paper&#8217;s conclusions&#8230; I&#8217;ll read it when I get the chance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/comment-page-1/#comment-3192</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:37:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/#comment-3192</guid>
		<description>&quot;if they sold up /and made/ other investments&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;if they sold up /and made/ other investments&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/comment-page-1/#comment-3191</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 17:37:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/#comment-3191</guid>
		<description>No, what you&#039;re doing there is confusing Econ 101 with real life. In real life, shareholders consistently hold shares in companies whose return on capital is lower than that which would be obtained if they sold up other investments. 

It&#039;s noticeable even for quoted companies - while for family-owned companies, it&#039;s near-universal.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, what you&#8217;re doing there is confusing Econ 101 with real life. In real life, shareholders consistently hold shares in companies whose return on capital is lower than that which would be obtained if they sold up other investments. </p>
<p>It&#8217;s noticeable even for quoted companies &#8211; while for family-owned companies, it&#8217;s near-universal.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jock</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/comment-page-1/#comment-3179</link>
		<dc:creator>Jock</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:57:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/#comment-3179</guid>
		<description>Increasing prices reduces the return to labour as well of course - just not necessarily the same labour as produced the item rising in price.  It is far less likely to reduce the return to capital as that is measured as opportunity cost against other investments and would soon cause any company passing on such costs in the form of lower returns to shareholders to have no shareholders at all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Increasing prices reduces the return to labour as well of course &#8211; just not necessarily the same labour as produced the item rising in price.  It is far less likely to reduce the return to capital as that is measured as opportunity cost against other investments and would soon cause any company passing on such costs in the form of lower returns to shareholders to have no shareholders at all!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: john b</title>
		<link>http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/comment-page-1/#comment-3178</link>
		<dc:creator>john b</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2007 13:49:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timworstall.com/2007/11/27/polly-on-taxation/#comment-3178</guid>
		<description>&quot;Let’s leave aside the well known point that corporation tax isn’t in fact paid by the company, that it, in reality, depresses the wages of the workers.&quot;

well-known among crazy libertoonian hacks, perhaps. 

in practice, like all restrictions/taxes on companies, it will partly raise the price paid by consumers, partly reduce the profits attributable to shareholders, and partly reduce the wages paid to workers...

Tim adds: Yes, as I said, it will depress the wages of the workers. And as a paper I blogged on just recently (at the ASI) showed, in the long term, a £ raised in corporation tax reduces wages by more than a £. 

I&#039;m also not quite sure what is crazy libertoon about saying &quot;depresses the wages of the workers&quot; when you, presumably no crazy libertoon, say &quot;partly reduce the wages paid to workers&quot;. Are reducing and depressing not near synonyms?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Let’s leave aside the well known point that corporation tax isn’t in fact paid by the company, that it, in reality, depresses the wages of the workers.&#8221;</p>
<p>well-known among crazy libertoonian hacks, perhaps. </p>
<p>in practice, like all restrictions/taxes on companies, it will partly raise the price paid by consumers, partly reduce the profits attributable to shareholders, and partly reduce the wages paid to workers&#8230;</p>
<p>Tim adds: Yes, as I said, it will depress the wages of the workers. And as a paper I blogged on just recently (at the ASI) showed, in the long term, a £ raised in corporation tax reduces wages by more than a £. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m also not quite sure what is crazy libertoon about saying &#8220;depresses the wages of the workers&#8221; when you, presumably no crazy libertoon, say &#8220;partly reduce the wages paid to workers&#8221;. Are reducing and depressing not near synonyms?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
